Bart Ehrman and Jodi Magness on the Burial of Jesus and the Empty Tomb

It’s been almost four years since Bart Ehrman’s How Jesus Became God was published, and one of the points of controversy that arose when the book was first released is the fact that Ehrman does not endorse the historicity of Joseph of Arimathea’s burial of Jesus, nor the discovery of Jesus’ empty tomb as a “historical fact” surrounding the earliest beliefs in the resurrection. Ehrman is hardly the only biblical scholar to hold this view, since as I have discussed before, there are several scholars who doubt these claims, showing that there is nothing like an academic consensus agreeing that they are “minimal facts” about the origins of Christianity.

One of the biggest criticisms of Ehrman’s book was his discussion of Jesus’ burial, and that he did not interact with his colleague Jodi Magness at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in the bibliography of the book, despite Magness’ expertise on burial practices in Palestine during the time of Jesus. As Greg Monette writes:

“One could only wished for Ehrman’s sake that he knocked on professor Magness’ door down the hall from his own at the University of North Carolina. His book would have greatly benefited from it.”

Based on Ehrman’s arguments for doubting the historicity of Joseph of Arimathea’s burial, however, and from what I have read of Magness’ own scholarship, I will argue that Ehrman’s thesis can be only slightly modified to still argue that Jesus was given an anonymous ground burial. To be sure, I agree with Monette that Ehrman’s discussion could be expanded to include Magness’ scholarship. But it is not to defend the empty tomb tradition in the Gospels.

First off, while Magness in “What Did Jesus Tomb Look Like?” (BAS 32:1) does argue that the Gospel accounts of Joseph’s burial are consistent with the archaeological evidence and Jewish law, she does not argue that they prove the historicity of Joseph of Arimathea, or his burial. The Gospel authors (or their sources) could have invented a burial tradition which aligned with the customs of the time, for a wealthy Judean offering Jesus a burial place in his family tomb. As Magness (pg. 13) writes:

“[A]rchaeology does not prove there was a follower of Jesus named Joseph of Arimathea or that Pontius Pilate granted his request for Jesus’ body…”

Now, it should be specified here that Magness’ view does contradict some of the other arguments that Ehrman makes in his book about the plausibility of the Romans granting such a burial request. On that point, I will not seek to modify or defend Ehrman’s thesis [1]. What I do wish to explore are the implications of Magness’ scholarship for what would have happened to Jesus’ body, had Joseph not intervened to offer Jesus a burial place in his rock-hewn family tomb.

A rock-hewn tomb, as described in the Gospels, is a known burial place above the ground, which in each of the Gospel narratives serves as the scene for which Jesus’ body is found to be missing. Since publishing his book, however, Ehrman has argued that Jesus was probably buried in a common grave with other criminals beneath the surface, in a mass pit in which his body would have decomposed, and not have been discoverable in the same way as the Gospels describe. As Erhman (“The Burial of Jesus: A Blast from the Past”) later wrote on his blog in responding to criticism after the books release:

“More commonly they would simply have left the carcass to rot on the cross, as part of the humiliation, or possibly thrown it into an open pit with other decaying bodies … What then really happened to the body of Jesus? We really don’t know. My guess is that like others (the two killed with Jesus that day, for example, and others crucified during that same Passover season), Jesus was thrown into a common tomb where he experience corruption like everyone else, so that within days he was no longer even recognizable.”

Now, Ehrman even describes this as his best “guess” as to what happened to Jesus’ body. His position is not rigid. But what is quite noteworthy is that Ehrman’s thesis is not terribly different from what Magness argues is what happened to crucified criminals, who were buried, when they came from lower class families that did not own a rock-hewn tomb in Jerusalem. Jesus’ family would have been of this category. As Magness (pg. 13) writes:

“Had Joseph of Arimathea not offered Jesus a spot in his family tomb, Jesus likely would have been disposed of in the manner of the poorer classes: in an individual trench grave dug into the ground. “

The main difference here is that, rather than a mass pit, on Magness’ view Jesus would have been buried in an individual trench grave. But without Joseph’s burial, both views would have Jesus buried beneath the surface, where the body would have soon decomposed and become unrecognizable. Magness also discusses how there is no surviving archaeological evidence that these trench graves would have been inscribed with the names of those buried there. As she writes (pg. 13):

“After the trench was filled in, a rough headstone was often erected at one end. The headstones are uninscribed, although some may once have had painted decoration or inscriptions that have not survived. Because trench graves are poor in finds and are much less conspicuous and more susceptible to destruction than rock-cut tombs, relatively few examples are recorded.”

And so, the evidence that survives is perfectly compatible with Jesus being buried in an anonymous trench grave in the ground, had Joseph of Arimathea not intervened to give Jesus a place in a rock-hewn tomb above the surface. According to Magness, neither the Sanhedrin nor the Roman authorities paid for the upkeep of rock-hewn tombs for lower-class criminals. As she writes (pg. 13):

“There is no evidence that the Sanhedrin or the Roman authorities paid for and maintained rock-cut tombs for executed criminals from impoverished families. Instead, these unfortunates would have been buried in individual trench graves or pits. This sort of tradition is preserved in the reference to “the Potter’s Field, to bury strangers in” (Matthew 27:7-8).”

Here, the Gospel of Matthew actually provides evidence that burial plots in the ground were commonly used as graves, which were likely assigned to executed criminals. In fact, Matthew furnishes evidence from the 1st century CE which suggests that it was the Sanhedrin who paid for the fields in which criminals were given ground burials. This evidence is provided by what the Sanhedrin chooses to do with the silver that Judas returns to them before he hangs himself. In Matthew 27:6-8, the following description is given of the field that the Sanhedrin purchases with the money:

The chief priests picked up the coins and said, ‘It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.’ So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field [ἀγρός] as a burial place for foreigners [ξένος]. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day.”

Now, I have inserted the Greek vocabulary for two key words in this passage. The first is ἀγρός (“field”). The fact that “potter’s field” is described as, well, a “field” emphasizes that it is used for ground burials, not rock-hewn tombs. The other Greek word I have emphasized is ξένος (“stranger/visitor”). Although this word is given in translations as “foreigner,” it does not mean “Gentile” (which is ἐθνικός). Rather, it means someone who is not a living resident of an area, in this case Jerusalem. Jesus would have been a ξένος in Jerusalem when he was executed, since he was a native and living resident of Galilee. And so, without having a family burial place nearby, he would have been buried in a place like potter’s field. The fact that it is also called “the Field of Blood” probably likewise suggests that it is frequently used as a burial place for non-resident criminals, thus gaining a stigma as something like a de facto criminals’ graveyard (here, reappropriated to Judas’ “blood money”).

Another pre-Gospel source may likewise suggests that Jesus was probably buried by the Sanhedrin as a whole, rather than Joseph of Arimathea, in particular. And taken together with the passage in Matthew above, which suggests that it was the Sanhedrin’s job to take care of the burial grounds for criminals, it would imply that Jesus was buried in a place like potter’s field. The source is found in a pre-Lucan tradition in one of Paul’s speeches in Acts. In Acts 13:28-31, Paul is depicted saying:

“Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb [μνημεῖον]. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.”

The passage above is regarded as pre-Lucan among scholars for a number of stylistic and lexical considerations that suggest it was part of Luke-Acts’ source material, rather than penned by the author himself. I have also emphasized another Greek word in this passage. The word μνημεῖον is often translated as “tomb,” but it does not have to mean a rock-hewn tomb. The Gospel of Mark (15:46) specifies that Jesus was buried in a “rock-hewn tomb,” by adding the additional vocabulary λελατομημένον ἐκ πέτρας, which means “cut out of rock. But this passage in Acts is lacking such a description. More generally, μνημεῖον by itself just means “burial place,” and it can equally mean a “grave” dug into the ground, including those that are unmarked and anonymous. In fact, this is even demonstrated by another passage in Luke-Acts using the same vocabulary. In Luke 11:44, it is stated:

“Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves [μνημεῖον], which people walk over without knowing it.”

And so, this pre-Lucan passage could suggest that the Sanhedrin merely laid Jesus in an unmarked grave in the ground. The implication that they actually did so, however, can be supported by a cross-reading of Matthew 27:6-8. In that passage, quoted above, it was shown that the Sanhedrin paid for the burial grounds of non-residents to the region, who were probably criminals (as Jesus would have been as a crucified criminal). And, those burial grounds are described as a “field,” not a rock-hewn tomb. Here, the Sanhedrin is described burying Jesus. And so, they would have likely buried Jesus in a burial plot in the ground, in a place like potter’s field. This is supported by Magness’ research, which states that crucified criminals of the lower classes would have been buried in trench graves dug into the ground, aligning with just such a description.

All of this so far is fairly compatible with Ehrman’s arguments against the historicity of Joseph of Arimathea’s burial in How Jesus Became God. Regarding the pre-Lucan source in Acts, Ehrman (pg. 154) points out, “here it is not a single member of the Sanhedrin [Joseph] who buries Jesus, but the council as a whole.” Ehrman likewise notes that, without Joseph’s family tomb, the passage emphasizes that it would have been the Sanhedrin’s responsibility to take care of Jesus’ burial. Ehrman (pg. 155) writes

“Jesus did not have any family in Jerusalem, and so there was no possibility of a family tomb in which to lay him or family members to do the requisite work of burial … [H]is followers had all fled the scene, so they could not do the job. The Romans were not about to do it … That leaves only one choice. If the followers of Jesus knew that he “had” to be buried in a tomb–since otherwise there could be no story about the tomb being empty–and they had to invent a story that described this burial, then the only ones who could possibly do the deed were the Jewish authorities themselves.”

One thing I disagree with on Ehrman here, though, is that there is no reason to think that the account of the Sanhedrin burying Jesus in Acts was necessary for the empty tomb. As I have already discussed, the passage in Acts does not even have to be taken as supporting a rock-hewn tomb. The passage can be equally read as implying a ground burial in a grave, and a cross-reading of potter’s field in Matthew even supports this interpretation. Moreover, the passage in Acts doesn’t even make mention of the empty tomb being discovered, and so there is little reason to think that the pre-Lucan source reflects the empty tomb tradition, which is otherwise not seen until Mark. I am also inclined to think that the story reported in this pre-Lucan source may very well have not been invented. Following Magness’ research, the Sanhedrin may have quite likely buried Jesus in a trench grave, and this is what was claimed in the earliest traditions.

What I do agree with on Ehrman (pg. 154), however, is that when comparing the pre-Lucan source to the Gospel accounts of Joseph of Arimathea’s burial, “It would make sense that this was the older tradition of the two.” I also agree with Ehrman (pg. 155) that this tradition may lie “behind 1 Corinthians 15:4 as well.” For the next stage of this analysis, therefore, I will turn to what Ehrman has to say about why Paul probably did not think that Joseph buried Jesus, when he discusses the resurrection in his letters.

Like the pre-Lucan source in Acts, Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 likewise makes no mention of Joseph of Arimathea, nor an empty tomb being discovered as part of the evidence of Jesus’ resurrection. This absence of the empty tomb in the earliest tradition is a striking silence, considering that in 1 Cor. 15, Paul is so emphatic about utilizing whatever argument he has at his disposal as a proof for Jesus’ resurrection. As scholar G.W.H. Lampe (The Resurrection, pg. 43) points out:

“In this case I think that the argument from silence has unusual force. For the situation in which Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15 was that some of the Corinthians were denying there is a resurrection of the dead (1 Cor. 15:12). In answer to them Paul marshals every possible argument … If Jesus’ resurrection is denied, he says, the bottom drops out of the Christian gospel. And the evidence that he was raised consists in the appearances to himself and to others. Had he known a tomb was found empty it seems inconceivable that he should not have adduced this here as a telling piece of objective evidence.”

But in his book, Ehrman brings in an additional argument pertaining to how the very wording of the creed, which Paul quotes in 1 Cor. 15, is awkwardly silent about Joseph. The “awkwardness” that I note is due the creed’s structure. The creed is broken into two parallel sections. The first section reads:

  1. Christ died for our sins
  2. according to the Scriptures
  3. he was buried [by whom?]

The second second section of the creed reads:

  1. he was raised on the third day
  2. according to the Scriptures
  3. he appeared to Cephas

Now, I have bolded Cephas (Peter) in this creed, since the inclusion of his name in the second section of this creed creates asymmetry with the first section. As Ehrman (pp. 141-142) points out about the bottom part of each section:

“[I]t is important to realize that all of the statement of the two sections of the creed are tightly parallel to one another in every respect–except one. The second contains a name as part of the tangible proof for the statement that Jesus was raised “He appeared to [literally: “he was seen by”] Cephas.” The fourth statement of the first section does not name any authorizing party. There we are told simply that “he was buried”–not that he was buried by anyone in particular. Given the effort that the author of this creed has taken to make every statement of the first section correspond to the parallel statement of the second section, and vice versa, this should give us pause. It would have been very easy indeed to make the parallel precise, simply by saying “he was buried by Joseph [of Arimathea].” Why didn’t the author make this precise parallel? My hunch is that it is because he knew nothing about a burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea. I should point out that nowhere else does Paul ever say anything about Joseph of Arimathea, or the way in which Jesus was buried–not in this creed, not in the rest of 1 Corinthians, and not in any of his other letters.”

Here, we have a strong formulaic reason to think that Paul had no knowledge of Joseph of Arimathea. The wording of the creed is clunky and incomplete, and it lacks symmetry. Moreover, we can cross-reference this creed with the pre-Lucan material in Acts. In that source, which also probably pre-dates the Gospels, Joseph is not described burying Jesus, but the whole Sanhedrin. Given that these are probably the two earliest traditions of Jesus’ burial in the New Testament, it is striking that neither mention Joseph of Arimathea. As Ehrman (pg. 155) writes about the possibility of Jospeh’s invention:

“As the burial tradition came to be told and retold, it possibly became embellished and made more concrete. Storytellers were apt to add details to stories that were vague, or to give names to people otherwise left nameless in a tradition, or to add named individuals to stories that originally mentioned only nameless individuals or undifferentiated groups of people. This is a tradition that lived on long after the New Testament period, as my own teacher Bruce Metzger showed so elegantly in his article “Names for the Nameless.” Here he showed all the traditions of people who were unnamed in New Testament stories receiving names later; for example, the wise men are named in later traditions, as are priests serving on the Sanhedrin when they condemned Jesus and the two robbers who were crucified with him. In the story of Joseph of Arimathea we may have an early instance of the phenomenon: what was originally a vague statement that the unnamed Jewish leaders buried Jesus becomes a story of one leader, in particular, who is named doing so.”

It is also striking that neither of these two earliest sources mention either a rock-hewn tomb nor the discovery of an empty burial place as a sign of the resurrection. Instead, both of these details do not appear until Mark, after which they are then picked up by the subsequent Gospels. Matthew and Luke are both widely known in scholarship to have been dependent upon Mark, as part of the Synoptic problem. John’s dependence on Mark is more controversial, but John would have at least been dependent on common sources shared with Mark, particularly in the Passion and burial section, where Joseph of Arimathea and the empty tomb appear. This means that all four Gospels are notoriously dependent on a common tradition for this story, a tradition that is lacking in 1 Cor. 15 and the pre-Lucan source in Acts [2]. As for a motive for inventing the empty tomb tradition, Ehrman (pg. 168) writes:

“I’m not saying that I think Mark invented the story. But if we can easily imagine a reason for Mark to have invented it, it doesn’t take much of a leap to think that one or more of his predecessors may also have had reasons for doing so. In the end, we simply cannot say that there would have be “no reason” for someone to invent the story of women discovering the empty tomb … [T]here are lots of reasons for someone wanting to invent the story that Jesus was buried in a known tomb and that it was discovered empty (whoever would have discovered it). And the most important is that the discovery of the empty is central to the claim that Jesus was resurrected.”

Ehrman goes on to note that this claim became more central when early Christians were combatting views that Jesus was only spiritually raised, and left his body behind, and thus wanted to emphasize that Jesus physically rose from the dead in the same body. The empty tomb could have likewise simply served as greater proof for those in doubt that the resurrection was a real event. But either way, the earliest evidence in 1 Cor. 15 makes no mention of an empty burial place, and neither does the pre-Lucan tradition in Acts. Instead, both Paul and the pre-Lucan source stress the appearance of Jesus to his followers after his death. And it was because certain Christians believed that Jesus had appeared to them, I think, that they first started to believe in the resurrection, not an empty tomb.

Of course, Paul does not specify whether or not Jesus “appeared” to his followers on earth or in celestial visions. In fact, Paul employs the same Greek vocabulary to describe Jesus’ appearance to himself (1 Cor. 15:8), as he does to the rest of the appearances in the passage. The Greek word Paul uses is ὤφθη (“was seen/appeared”), which can likewise mean “was seen in visions.” If we turn to the description of Paul’s own vision of Jesus in Acts (9:3-5; 22:6-8; 26:13-15), Paul merely sees Jesus from a light in the sky, which would not be an earthly appearance, but rather a celestial vision. As Raymond Brown (An Introduction to the New Testament, pg. 534) points out:

“The concluding reference to himself is extremely important since Paul is the only NT writer who claims personally to have witnessed an appearance of the risen Jesus … Paul places the appearance to himself, even if it was last, on the same level as the appearance to all the other listed witnesses.”

The use of the exact same Greek vocabulary could easily imply that the other first witnesses to the resurrection, described in 1 Cor. 15, had no greater an experience than Paul, and merely witnessed celestial visions of Jesus. This is the view that Ehrman takes in How Jesus Became God. On pp. 205-206, Ehrman writes:

e606eb19961b5021991c28bfd0cdddef.jpg“They believed that Jesus had come back from the dead — but he was not still living among them as one of them. He was nowhere to be found. He did not resume his teaching activities in the hills of Galilee … The disciples, knowing that Jesus was raised that he was no longer among them, concluded that he had been exalted to heaven. When Jesus came back to life, it was not merely that his body had been reanimated. God had taken Jesus up to himself in the heavenly realm, to be with him … This is why the disciples told the stories of Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances the way they did. Jesus did not resume his earthly body. He had a heavenly body. When he appeared to his disciples, in the earliest traditions, he appeared from heaven.”

My own personal view is that, following Jesus’ death by crucifixion, the Sanhedrin most likely buried Jesus in a trench grave in the ground (which could have very likely been unmarked) in a place like potter’s field. There was no rock-hewn tomb, or empty burial place discovered by women. The disciples fled Jerusalem and some time later had personal experiences (which were most likely subjective visions), which caused them to believe that Jesus had been elevated to heaven by God after his death. They believed that Jesus had appeared to them from heaven. Later, the stories of Jesus’ burial became embellished over time, and so Joseph of Arimathea’s role was invented to give Jesus a more honorable burial in a rock-hewn tomb. This tomb served as the scene for an empty burial place, which suited later apologetic purposes, to stress that Jesus was physically raised from the dead, and not just in the spirit. This later burial tradition by Joseph, which first appears in Mark, was developed by each of the later Gospel authors in their own ways, as were the resurrection accounts that depict Jesus appearing to his disciples in an earthly setting (which is not specified in Paul, the earliest source). The rest, as they say, is history.

But what is noteworthy is that Bart Ehrman’s views on Jesus’ burial can be amended quite easily to be compatible with those of Jodi Magness. The biggest area where they diverge is that Ehrman argues that Joseph of Arimathea’s burial is out of line with the burial practices for crucified criminals in 1st century Roman Palestine. Magness disagrees, and thinks that the type of burial described in the Gospels is consistent with the background evidence. But, Magness takes no stance on the historicity of Joseph’s burial. The Gospel authors (or their sources) could have easily invented a burial tradition which aligned with the practices of their time. But, Ehrman’s view that Jesus was buried in the ground still lines up with what Magness says would have happened to Jesus, without someone like Joseph. The only major difference is, rather than being buried in a mass pit, Jesus would have been buried in an individual trench grave. I do think that Ehrman’s thesis would have benefited from making this nuance, and this is how I think he should have incorporated Magness’ research into How Jesus Became God.

-Matthew Ferguson

[1] In his follow-up response to Craig Evans, starting with the blog “Did the Romans Allow Decent Burials?,” Bart Ehrman does go through several primary sources relating to Roman crucifixion, to argue that there is not much evidence that the Roman authorities in Palestine granted burial for criminals executed by crucifixion. In “Ossuaries and the Burials of Jesus and James” (pg. 141, n. 94), Jodi Magness cites McCane (Roll Back the Stone, pp. 90, 105) and Brown (Death of the Messiah, 2:1207), as evidence for the the claim: “Although victims of crucifixion could be left on their crosses for days, this was not usually the case.” Magness also cites Joseph of Arimathea’s burial in the Gospels as evidence for this claim.

For the purposes of determining whether the Romans allowed burials for crucified criminals, in terms of background data for assessing the reliability of the Gospel burial traditions, appealing to the traditions themselves is circular. I have not studied the primary sources that McCane and Brown analyze, and so I’m not sure how much they overlap with those that Ehrman critiques in his blog series. As such, Ehrman may have already addressed many of their points, and he certainly does make an effort to defend his position that the Romans did not allow burials for crucified criminals, by engaging primary evidence.

For the purposes of this blog essay, I will assume Magness’ position that the Romans did grant such burials to the crucified, for the sake of argument, to show that the Magness’ position can still be applied to a modified version of Ehrman’s argument, to defend his thesis against the empty tomb and in favor of an obscure ground burial of Jesus.

[2] As evidence that the pre-Marcan burial traditions probably lacked the belief in a rock-hewn tomb, it should be noted that the post-Marcan traditions add embellishments to the story. In Mark (15:46), the tomb is simply said to be “cut out of rock.” Luke (23:53) adds the detail that the tomb had never been used before, however, making the burial more honorable. Matthew (27:59-6) adds both the detail that the tomb was both unused and that it was even Joseph’s own tomb. John (19:39-41) even further adds the detail that Jesus was anointed with 75 pounds of myrrh and aloes before his burial, even when this largely contradicts Mark 16:1, which implies that Jesus was not anointed before his burial. John also adds the detail that Jesus was buried in a garden.

If the burial traditions after Mark add details to the burial location, in the direction of making it more honorable, it makes sense that the burial traditions before Mark would have been added to by the Marcan tradition, and would have been less honorable than the rock-hewn tomb in Mark. This fits with the Marcan tradition adding λελατομημένον ἐκ πέτρας (“cut out of rock”) to μνημεῖον (“burial place”), in order to add the detail of a rock-hewn tomb. Without the additional description, μνημεῖον by itself can equally mean a ground burial plot, and the fact that the Marcan tradition takes pains to add the extra description, probably implies that it meant just that, before Mark had to overtly state otherwise.

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43 Responses to Bart Ehrman and Jodi Magness on the Burial of Jesus and the Empty Tomb

  1. Jeff says:


    I agree with your obscure ground burial, but a couple thoughts.

    You and Ehrman seem to make a big issue out of the asymmetry of the creed, but couldn’t the creed formulators have just said “he was buried by Jewish authorities” or “he was buried by the Romans”, or put anything else they wanted in there to indicate who buried Jesus? The asymmetry seems a non-issue to me. It seems to me it is just the way the creed formulators decided to write it.

    You wrote, “rather than a mass pit [per Ehrman], on Magness’ view Jesus would have been buried in an individual trench grave….both views would have Jesus buried beneath the surface…” I don’t think this last part is true. As you quote Ehrman, at most the Roman’s would have “thrown it [Jesus’ corpse] into an OPEN pit”. That is not buried beneath the surface, and there is no way a Jew would ever consider that body “buried” (1 Cor 15:4). That is why Ehrman has to propose that a discovered empty burial place legend (with a burial legend included of course) was already in circulation and being used in the early creed (your bolded quote from HGBG pg. 155). But this goes against the evidence that a discovered empty burial place legend did not come about until after the creed and after Paul. Frankly, I think Ehrman has backed himself into this posture because he has (incorrectly) concluded that the Roman’s would never have allowed the Jewish authorities to bury Jesus.

    (Two insignificant corrections to your quotes of Ehrman: “behind 1 Corinthians 15:3 as well” should refer to 1 Cor 15:4. You left out a phrase by Ehrman in your quote: “My hunch is that it is because he knew nothing about a burial of Jesus by Joseph of Arimathea, or the way in which Jesus was buried…”)

    • Celsus says:

      Hi Jeff,

      Well a “pit,” last I checked, is defined as “a large hole in the ground.” So it would be beneath the surface. They might not have filled it in. But I checked on Ehrman’s blog, and when a questioner asked (under this post):

      “Hey Bart. Do you still believe that Jesus was probably buried in a pit after being left on the cross by the Romans?”

      Ehrman replied:

      “I think it is probable that the Romans left him on the cross for a few days and I suppose the best guess is that they disposed of the body the way they normally did, as you suggest.”

      So it does seem that Ehrman is saying that the pit was covered over after the bodies were dumped in, and hence buried. It would not have met the standards of a Jewish burial, per 1 Cor 15:4, no. But I was just using the term in a general sense to mean digging a hole, putting a body in it, and covering it over.

    • Celsus says:

      I didn’t think about the possibility of Ehrman’s view already implying something like an empty burial place in Paul’s creed (or at least a more honorable disposal of Jesus’ body than a mass pit burial). It could be that if the final location of Jesus’ body was unknown to his followers, only the burial itself was invented, to cover up the disgrace of there being no proper disposal of the body. But you may be right. On the other hand, if the view I have proposed of a ground burial in a trench grave is correct, that would be a minimal burial, but it would meet the standards of a Jewish burial, and hence the meaning of 1 Cor. 15:4. So, no empty burial location would need be implied in the creed on that view.

    • Celsus says:

      The asymmetry of the creed is only a big deal if 1) Joseph of Arimathea did the burial and 2) he was an early Christian figure (as he is later depicted in the Gospels). That would assume he was someone later known in the Christian community, of the sort to be identified in a Christian creed. And so, it would make sense to have the creed by symmetrical, by having Joseph’s name in parallel with Peter. If the Sanhedrin (without Joseph) or Romans did the burial though, then no, I don’t think they would have been included in a Christian creed, but that would also mean that Mark’s burial tradition was inaccurate.

    • Celsus says:

      Fixed the typos, thanks.

    • Celsus says:

      Then again, under the same post, I also see Ehrman saying:

      “I don’t cite any references to a common grave, since it is common knowledge that most people in antiquity were not given private burial plots/caves but were just buried in the dirt. The Romans had to do something with the carcasses, so I assume they just [put them in the dirt and I don’t think there’s any reason to suspect they dug a new grave for everyone they executed. The references to bodies being left on the crosses are in the text of my discussion (I quote the sources).”

      I think what he means by “open pit” is that they didn’t fill in the pit right away, but left it open for new corpses to be thrown in. But presumably they buried it over once it was full enough, and then dug a new pit when needed. So eventually Jesus would have been buried beneath the surface, if not right away.

  2. Jeff says:

    All of the references I am aware of refer to crucifixion victims being devoured by birds and wild animals, which would seem to imply never buried under the dirt. I just mentioned this in passing. I don’t think it matters to Ehrman’s theory because Ehrman seems to propose that a discovered empty burial place legend (with a burial legend included) lies behind 1 Cor 15:4 (how else to interpret your bolded quote from HGBG pg. 155, which ends with “Possibly this is the tradition that lies behind 1 Corinthians 15:4”?). So Ehrman appears to think the creed (and I guess Paul too) both thought there was a discovered empty burial place but, for whatever reason, never mentioned it.

    Good point about the asymmetry in the creed applying only to Joseph.

    • Eric Bess says:

      Jeff, I think you’re reading more into Ehrman’s statements than is necessary. If Ehrman thinks a burial legend like that found in the Acts 13 reference may lie behind 1Cor 15.4, that doesn’t mean Paul thought the burial place was *discovered* empty, or that there was a story of its discovery.

    • Celsus says:

      Hi Jeff,

      I just confirmed, by asking Ehrman on his blog, that his view is that the carcasses would be covered with dirt afterward. Ehrman replied under this blog post:

      “We don’t know for certain, but it is usually thought that the carcasses would not be left rotting in an open pit, but would be covered with dirt. That’s normally the procedure for mass graves throughout history, as I understand it.”

      So, the way I described his view in this blog essay is correct.


  3. Jeff says:


    Thanks for confirming Ehrman’s view. I certainly have no problem with Ehrman’s speculation, but as far as I know, there is zero evidence that the Romans *ever* removed crucifixion victims from the cross unless they were giving the body back to someone else, and even if one assumes the Romans did eventually remove crucifixion victims from the cross and cast the body into a pit themselves, there is zero evidence (again, as far as I know) informing us if the Romans covered the body with dirt or left it exposed (they had no concept of germs back then). As Martin Hengel in his book Crucifixion says, “Crucifixion was aggravated further by the fact that quite often its victims were *never* buried. It was a stereotyped picture that the crucified victim served as food for wild beasts and birds of prey” (pg. 87). The only reason I can tell that Hengel says “quite often” is because he knows crucified bodies were sometimes given back others (he does not cover this in his book). I could not find one instance in his short book of a crucified body being removed from the cross by the Romans for further disposal of the body. Why would the Romans bother? Eventually all of the body parts would succumb to gravity and be taken away by scavengers. Maybe at the most the Romans would have to remove the last bones nailed to the cross, but I would think they would just chuck those on the ground where they stood.

    But like I said, I don’t think any of the above matters to Ehrman’s theory of how “buried” got into the early creed (1 Cor 15:4) because he is not trying to account for this word with a *Roman* burial. He seems to be proposing that a discovered empty burial place *legend* (with a burial legend included of course) was *already* in circulation and being used in the early creed, and that accounts for the word “buried” in the creed: “If the followers of Jesus knew that he ‘had’ to be buried in a tomb–*since otherwise there could be no story about the tomb being empty*… Possibly this is the tradition that lies behind 1 Corinthians 15:4” (HGBG, pg. 155). The problem with this approach is that Paul knows nothing about a discovered empty tomb, which means the creed probably does not either, which means a standalone burial tradition exited *first*. Your obscure ground burial seems a plausible option to me, but Ehrman will have nothing of it because, according to him, the Romans would never have given Jesus’ body back to the Jewish authorities (a misreading of the evidence for this plausibly happening in my opinion).

    • Celsus says:

      I think one way to read 1 Cor. 15:4, on Ehrman’s view, is that the early Christians would have been ashamed that Jesus got no proper burial. And so, they added to the creed that he was buried (ambiguously) to cover up the shame Jesus would have received either being left on the cross or being thrown in a mass pit. That doesn’t necessarily imply an empty tomb in the creed.

  4. Jeff says:


    If Jesus’ followers felt shame because Jesus was left on the cross, why not say Jesus was raised right off the cross (at night if they wanted to explain to themselves why nobody saw it)?

    If Jesus’ followers felt shame because they knew Jesus was thrown into a mass pit and felt this would not qualify as buried, then I think your proposal has more plausibility, but this would seem to require the early Christians to think that Jesus was not raised for *weeks* after his crucifixion (unless you want to propose that the Romans took down his body fairly quickly or that the early Christian imagined they did for some reason, but then what would be the imaged reason?). It also seems unlikely to me that an “ambiguous” reference to burial would survive in an important teaching/preaching creed (if that is what it is); people would have asked what kind of burial Jesus got and I would think they had to have something in mind.

    • Celsus says:

      Well, the circumstances might matter. If Jesus’ followers all fled, and no one knew what happened to the body, regardless of whether it was buried in a pit or not (but they were aware of how the Romans mistreated crucified corpses), then they may have invented the tradition in 1 Cor. 15:4 to cover up the embarrassment. What they told people when they asked what specifically happened may have been the tradition in Acts 13:28-31. I’m just suggesting this as a hypothetical.

    • Celsus says:

      I should note, though, the hypothesis that Jesus’ body was buried in obscure conditions is favored more by my thoery. The Sanhedrin would have worked to get the body buried the same day that Jesus died, in order to abide by the provision in Deuteronomy 21:23. Even Ehrman acknowledges this (under the following post), when he writes: “I should point out that if it were *Jews* who had executed Jesus, then indeed their law would have required them to bury him that day.”

      Likewise, while Magness has suggested that Jewish ground burials may have included inscriptions or paintings for the headstones erected on top (even if no evidence for any survives), I don’t think the Sanhedrin would have gone through the trouble to do this for burials they were taking care of at public expense, much less for crucified criminals. At most, they would have just put a stone at the top of the burial plot to mark that a body was beneath the surface. Quite quickly Jesus’ burial plot could have been forgotten, if it was even known which one they used in the first place.

      And as already noted, the hypothesis I have proposed would align with the description in 1 Cor. 15:4. I think the “raised on the third day” bit is invented from a number of resurrection and OT motifs. Could be Jonah and the whale, or just the fact that it was used in Mediterranean resurrection stories more commonly. Euripides attests to the “third day” motif in his Alcestis. So it’s not weird to see that motif picked up in Christian mythology. But it does fit better if Jesus’ body was buried quickly, and not left up for a while, as Ehrman’s theory would suggest (even if Jesus’ body was eventually thrown into a mass pit and buried).

  5. Jeff says:


    The Acts 13:28-31 tradition has the *Jewish authorities* burying Jesus, which would entail the Romans giving the body to them. In order for the earliest Christians to invent that story, and for anyone to believe them, would seem to require that such a thing was thought plausible by Jews at the time. But if the handing over of a crucified body by the Romans to the Jewish authorities was thought plausible by Jews at that time, that seems to me pretty strong evidence that it *actually was* plausible. But if the handing over of a crucified body by the Romans to the Jewish authorities actually was plausible, then that would seem to shoot a hole in Ehrman’s own argument that it was not plausible. So no, I don’t see how this plugs the hole in Ehrman’s hypothesis, but I’m open to any other suggestions you have.

    • Celsus says:

      Well, the Christians wouldn’t have wanted Jesus to stay on the cross, lest he suffer the curse outlined in Deuteronomy. That would be a sufficient theological motivation to get him down the same day, even if it was implausible. And, the Sanhedrin would be the group most likely to do the burial, under this scenario. So, even it were implausible, you could see them inventing such a tradition. They could argue that Jesus was granted some sort of special favor. Ehrman seems to be exploring this possibility right now on his blog:

  6. Jeff says:


    We might have different ideas of what plausible is.

    I whole heartedly agree with you that there would have been a theological motivation to get Jesus down from the cross the same day. You propose the early Christians invented such a tradition based on Jesus being “granted some sort of special favor”. In my mind, that “some sort of special favor” needed to be plausible *in the minds of Jesus’ followers*. What do you think it was, or do you think Jesus’ followers were fine just leaving that unanswered to themselves and those that asked? Ehrman says there were no special favors.

    • Celsus says:

      Well, yes, Ehrman is shooting a hole in his theory if he argues that special favors were never granted. But I don’t think that would be so, even if the Romans didn’t normally grant Jewish burials for crucified criminals. I doubt that they would have had a rigid policy. Presumably someone of authority, like Pilate, could have over-ridden standard procedure. That’s what I mean by “plausible.” It could have been plausible enough in the minds of those hearing the creed, under this hypothetical scenario, that Jesus was given some kind of special treatment.

    • Celsus says:

      Josephus was able to persuade Titus to take down men who had been crucified, after all. It’s a bit different, since they were taken down while still alive; but I think a Roman administrator with the authority to order a crucifixion could also decide whether a proper burial would be granted to the crucified or not, even if it departed from standard practice.

  7. Jeff says:

    Yep, I agree, there is a plausible scenario where Jesus would have been removed from the cross on Friday and buried by the Jewish authorities. I just don’t know why anyone would argue Jesus’ followers imagined it instead of arguing that it actually happened (as you propose in your obscure ground burial).

    • Celsus says:

      Well, I think they would have imagined it under the hypothetical scenario that it was not normal policy to grant such burials, and the Romans instead normally left the bodies up or dumped them in a mass pit. To avoid the curse in Deuteronomy and to spare Jesus the embarrassment of never receiving a proper burial, they would have imagined that he must have been granted some sort of special favor. If it was normal practice for the Romans to hand crucified criminals over to the Sanhedrin for burial, then I think they would just argue that Jesus received the standard burial that was custom.

  8. Jeff says:

    OK, I’ll buy that.

  9. Jeff says:

    For whatever it’s worth, Richard Carrier says, “There is no evidence (none whatever) that mass burial was ever practiced in Judea by the Romans” (

  10. Leigh says:

    Could the reason for the story of Jesus dying quicker than normal from crucifixion be to blend in with the narrative of “Rising on the third day”.

    • Celsus says:

      It could be that Mark wanted Jesus’ death and resurrection to overlap around the Sabbath, possibly. Perhaps to symbolize God’s rest on the Sabbath. I haven’t seen a scholar suggest this before (perhaps it has been suggested), but it’s a thought I have. If so, then that may be one reason why the author had Jesus die quickly on Friday, remain in the tomb on Saturday, and then rise on Sunday.

  11. jamesbradfordpate says:

    Reblogged this on James' Ramblings and commented:
    Reblogging for future reference.

  12. Mr ferguson, can you tell me if the following information is correct :

    Regarding “thapto”:

    Did thapto *always* mean a “burial with rites / honors”?

    The LXX, Jer 22:7, “With the burial of a donkey he will be buried and dragged along and cast forth beyond the gates of Jerusalem”.

    This would be “(with the) “tafi” of a donkey he will be “thapto’ed” and dragged out… beyond the gates of Jerusalem”.

    Clearly, this is not a “burial with rites”; it is the “burial of a donkey”. But equally clearly is that this is a very mocking, derisive declaration. It is akin to me saying “oh, yes, I graduated with honors. I had the honor of being last in my class”. Or, perhaps better, like some Mafia guy saying “oh, yeh, we gave the guy a decent burial – right in the bottom of the Hudson river” (clearly mocking the notion of a “decent burial”).

    What I’m getting at is that this use of thapto, in this very derisive fashion, *confirms* that the normal usage of it was *not* in regards to the “tafi” *of a donkey*, but was, in fact, used to signify a burial with honors or rites. And, that’s the very thing that makes this particular usage of thapto – and thus, the whole sentence – to be derisive.

    The second clue is the use of the word “tafi”, for “burial”. This word is used only *once* in the NT, in Matt 27:7: “And they conferred together and with the money bought the Potter’s Field as a burial place for foreigners.” This word “foreigners” would, of course, refer to the “goyim” — gentiles.

    In every other instance in the NT, the word commonly translated as “burial” is ” entaphiazein” (or, whatever form was appropriate in the context). Gentiles – foreigners – one’s that did not have a “proper *Jewish* burial” – were “tafi’ed”, according to their own customs. Deceased Jews were “sepulchered” – which would indicate that they were handled in a process that would eventually lead to having their bones placed in a sepulcher, which would occur about a year after they were entombed or buried in the ground.

    What we see, then, is that in the two instances in which either an ignoble burial or a gentile burial are addressed, even when the word “thapto” is used, it is given a “qualifier”, to signify *something other than a ‘proper Jewish burial’”. Thapto, to a Greek-speaking Jew – would *still* mean “a proper Jewish burial”. (I think it could be easily argued that the first-century Jews considered burial with the same level of importance as did the ancient Greeks.)

    Thus, when Paul says that Jesus was “thapto’ed”, he was, by default, referring to a “proper Jewish burial”. If he had said “Jesus was ‘thapto’ed’ with the burial of a gentile” (or with that of a donkey), then we could most certainly presume his burial was not up to Jewish standards. But if we are to treat the “normal” usage of words as if they have actual, set *meaning*, then Paul was talking about a decent burial.

    Now, does this mean Paul knew what he was talking about? Could Paul simply have been *told* that Jesus’ had an “ensepulchering” and that he was afforded bona-fide “thapto”? Yeh, sure, that’s possible. Maybe that was the “big lie” being passed around by Peter, et al. But, that’s another issue altogether.


    • Celsus says:

      Well, a proper Jewish burial could still entail a trench grave in the ground, so saying that Jesus was “thapto’ed” does not necessarily entail burial in a rock-hewn tomb.

      What I don’t understand is your interpretation that the ξένοί described in Matt 27:7 should be equated with the Hebrew goyim (“Gentiles”). The Greek word for “Gentile” is not ξένος, but ἐθνικός.

    • Celsus says:

      Raymond Brown (The Death of the Messiah, Yale University Press, Dec 1, 1998, pg. 646) notably agrees with my interpretation that Potter’s Field is described as a burial place for Jews who are not native to Jerusalem, rather than Gentiles.

    • Celsus says:

      If you are right about the inclusion of the word ταφή being derogatory, I think in the case of Matt 27:7 it’s because Potter’s Field was regarded as an ignoble place of burial, similar in sense to the burial of a donkey that you described above. This is the “field of blood” after all. But I don’t think it’s because it was a burial place for Gentiles. It’s because it was a place for lower class burials, used for Jews non-native to Jerusalem and paid for by the Sanhedrin, where criminals without family in Jerusalem often ended up. The Sanhedrin paid for the minimal provisions of a Jewish burial. The passage wouldn’t describe the place in elevated terms.

    • Celsus says:

      Jodi Magness (pg. 13) also identifies Potter’s Field as a place for lower class Jewish burials: “There is no evidence that the Sanhedrin or the Roman authorities paid for and maintained rock-cut tombs for executed criminals from impoverished families. Instead, these unfortunates would have been buried in individual trench graves or pits. This sort of tradition is preserved in the reference to ‘the Potter’s Field, to bury strangers in.'”

  13. David Austin says:

    Hi Matthew,
    I seem to remember that Richard Carrier mentioned on one of his blogs, that Jesus could,indeed have been buried in a tomb. Apparently, it was not uncommon, in those times, for there to be some sort of communal tomb where the dead bodies of convicted criminals could be stored, and then later the bones disposed of.

    I’m not sure where he found that information, but it does really advance any “Empty Tomb” narrative, since it would not be a private tomb as depicted in the gospels.

    Have you heard of this theory?

    • Celsus says:

      Yes, it relies on later descriptions of burial practices for criminals in the Talmud, but Hezser doesn’t accept that view on the grounds that it lacks archaeological evidence. Likewise, Eldad Keynan (“Jewish Burials”) points out that reburial in a family tomb could only be provided for, if it was located within one day’s traveling distance from the location in which the individual had been executed, under Jewish law:

      “[I]f a Jew committed a crime in a place other than his own town\village, those courts now have the authority to bring him to trial. This could cause a severe problem in terms of Jewish laws: the proper place for the felon’s bones is another place, geographically. The problem is that Jewish law strictly prohibits moving bodies and\or remains from one place to another in the Land of Israel. For most – bodies and bones might be “on the road” from sunrise to sunset, and then they must be buried for good. The problem seems unsolved, in cases when a felon’s family lived in a place more than one day’s distance from the court.”

      So Jesus’ remains couldn’t have been taken back to Nazareth. While some of the accounts (e.g., Luke) depict Jesus having family in Jerusalem, they are later than the earliest and somewhat dubious, especially since those family members aren’t mentioned providing provisions for Jesus’ burial. As such, I tend to think that, without someone like Joseph of Arimathea providing a place of burial, the Sanhedrin would have instead paid for a place of permanent burial. And they wouldn’t have paid for an expensive location like a rock-hewn tomb, but rather the minimal provisions of a Jewish burial, i.e., a trench burial in the ground.

  14. ftbond says:

    One must not miss the profound significance of something Ehrman points out (and which is quoted in this article):

    “And the most important is that the discovery of the empty is central to the claim that Jesus was resurrected.””

    Ehrman is correct, in my view. The empty tomb IS INDEED central to the claim that Jesus was resurrected. I’d agree that this is absolutely correct.

    It is so correct, in fact, that there is no reason at all to think that a story of a resurrection could *ever* have begun to circulate *unless* there was, in fact, an empty tomb.

    If Jesus died and was buried in an unmarked trench grave – and hence, whether the body was *missing* from that unmarked grave could simply not be determined – then, there is effectively *no story at all*.

    If Jesus were buried as such, and then this was followed by some man making a claim that Jesus had been resurrected – the first and most obvious question would be “why do you think he was resurrected, if you don’t even know where the body was buried and whether it’s no longer there”?

    I say it’s “obvious” for the same reason that Ehrman admits that the empty tomb is “the most important” factor, central to the claim that Jesus was resurrected.

    There is, in my view, no way on earth that a story of Jesus’ resurrection could have survived for the 20-30 years between the time of Jesus’ death and Paul’s letters *unless* there had, in fact, been an empty tomb.

    Ehrman states his opinion as a rationale for saying “this is why the story of the tomb was invented”. But, if that is the case, it is a story that would have had to been invented very, very early on – so early, in fact, that this part of the story could have long been refuted by those who *knew* (presumably) that Jesus had been put in a trench grave.

    One must not ignore this: Jesus was crucified at *the Passover*. This is a time in which Jerusalem would have been literally *surrounded* by 300,000 – 500,000 Passover pilgrims who would have camped outside the city walls. (note: that’s exactly what Jesus and his disciples were doing – camping out at Gethsemane). Jerusalem’s longest wall was just a bit over a quarter of a mile in length at that time, and the whole of the city could *easily* have fit into a “square” that was a quarter of a mile on every side. Do the math: You’ll realize that the crowd camping around the perimeter of Jerusalem is about like the crowd that packs into a football stadium.

    Out of that crowd – with Jesus having been crucified in a spot where the crucifixion could be observed by as many people as possible – it is utterly implausible that nobody – none of the people in that massive crowd – would have seen whether Jesus’ body had been taken off the cross, or, whether it had been buried in a trench grave. Especially given the notion that it was a very-expected Jewish custom to follow after a “funeral procession” (meaning, the carrying of a body to a grave).

    So, yes, Ehrman’s statement is one I would agree with entirely – but – it leads me to an entirely different place than it leads Ehrman.

    The empty tomb was indeed so important to the resurrection story that the resurrection story could never have gotten off the ground without it being true, from the get-go.

    • Celsus says:

      I have a limited amount of time tonight, so I suppose that I will answer this question now:

      First off, when Ehrman says that the empty tomb is “central” to the story of the resurrection, he doesn’t mean that it is “necessary.” In his book, he clarifies that the empty tomb would have functioned very well as propaganda piece for the resurrection (hence why the story was invented fairly early on). But he doesn’t think that it was what *started* the belief in the resurrection.

      Rather, Ehrman argues that Jesus’ followers came to believe that he had been raised from the dead, because they had post-mortem visionary experiences, not long after the crucifixion. The two earliest Gospels—Mark and Matthew—place these experiences in Galilee, at a distance from Jesus’ burial place in Jerusalem. These sources do not even state that the 12 visited the alleged empty tomb.

      When you ask:

      “If Jesus were buried as such, and then this was followed by some man making a claim that Jesus had been resurrected – the first and most obvious question would be “why do you think he was resurrected, if you don’t even know where the body was buried and whether it’s no longer there”?”

      First off, I don’t see why this would be the most obvious question to an ancient audience. Maybe it would be to us, but why to an ancient listener? Regardless, the answer to this question could just as easily be, “Because he appeared to me, and I saw him.” Not, “Because I found an empty tomb.” In fact, the earliest source—Paul—appeals to post-mortem sightings of Jesus and makes no mention of an empty tomb being discovered.

      When you also state:

      “There is, in my view, no way on earth that a story of Jesus’ resurrection could have survived for the 20-30 years between the time of Jesus’ death and Paul’s letters *unless* there had, in fact, been an empty tomb.”

      This just demonstrates a lack of historical imagination. Elvis Presley has a photograph of his dead body, and we know where his grave is. And yet, stories of him still being alive have persisted for the last 40 years. Sure, most people don’t believe them, but yet most Judeans and Gentiles didn’t believe in the story of Jesus’ resurrection in the 1st century CE, just a fringe cult.

      Given the range of fake news, hoaxes, conspiracy theories, delusions, and hokey religions that persist today, thinking that Christianity would have been fact-checked to death, unless there really was an empty tomb, is simply being closed-minded.

      As for the number of people being in Jerusalem during the Passover, it’s important to remember that the resurrection was not proclaimed by the Christians until several weeks *after Passover*. Acts 2 places this proclamation seven weeks after Jesus’ death. Most of those huge crowds you mention would have been gone by then.

      We also have to take into account the fact that we don’t know how many other people were executed during that time along with Jesus. Two other criminals are mentioned in the Gospels, but there would have likely been more, given the turbulence associated with the festival. With the requirement to bury the bodies by sundown, there could have easily been confusion over whose body went where.

      Likewise, funeral processions wouldn’t have been allowed for individuals buried in disgrace, which would have been common for criminals executed by crucifixion. And if the resurrection belief first started in Galilee, which is where the earliest Gospels place it, then Jesus’ burial place wouldn’t be nearby anyways.

      This all assumes that the first Christians believed Jesus rose in the same body as he died. But a number of scholars, such as James Tabor, think that they actually thought Jesus’ spirit ascended and was clothed in a different body than the one in which he died. In that case, there would have been no belief in an empty tomb to begin with.

      So no, these issues lead me in a very, very different direction than you. It’s funny, because Christians want us to believe that it’s plausible that someone could miraculously rise from the dead. But then they exercise a *massive* amount of skepticism in thinking that a story couldn’t be made up about a guy resurrecting, unless there really was an empty tomb. I find that to be special pleading, to the extreme.

      • ftbond says:

        re: “First off, when Ehrman says that the empty tomb is “central” to the story of the resurrection, he doesn’t mean that it is “necessary.” ”

        From “How Jesus Became God”: If there were no tomb for Jesus, or if no one knew where the tomb was, the bodily resurrection could not be proclaimed. You have to have a known tomb.”

        From “How Jesus Became God”: “And the most
        important is that the discovery of the empty tomb is central to the claim that Jesus was resurrected. If there was no empty tomb, Jesus was not physically raised. I want to stress that adjective. Without an empty tomb, there would be no ground for saying that
        Jesus was physically raised.”

        Ehrman clearly thinks that an empty tomb is necessary for a *physical* resurrection.

        Entertaining ideas of a “spiritual” resurrection, though, are (in my book) completely non-starters. A “spiritual resurrection” (a) would have been, and still is an entirely acceptable belief in Judaism, and therefore, nothing for Paul (for example) to persecute, and (b) a “spiritual resurrection” would never work with the Messiah concept – there is no such thing as a “dead Messiah”, or a “ghost” sitting on the throne of Israel.

        And, besides, in normative Pharisaic and Christian belief, “resurrection” *means* a bodily resurrection in which the body is “transformed”, becoming equally substantive with the spirit.

        So, I guess we could quabble over whatever the heck Ehrman means when he says “central”. but, that doesn’t seem to imply that the bodily resurrection is *not* central to the story in the form it currently stands.

        re: “First off, I don’t see why this would be the most obvious question to an ancient audience. Maybe it would be to us, but why to an ancient listener?”

        I don’t see why *you* think an ancient listener wouldn’t equally have the same questions *you* do. After all, the vast majority of them *did not* believe Jesus was resurrected, did they?

        re: “Likewise, funeral processions wouldn’t have been allowed for individuals buried in disgrace, which would have been common for criminals executed by crucifixion.”

        I have never once read anything that makes me believe this is correct. I know that certain *mourning* practices were not allowed for criminals, but a procession is not a part of mourning. It is a part of the burial process itself. Perhaps you could provide references?

        re: “As for the number of people being in Jerusalem during the Passover, it’s important to remember that the resurrection was not proclaimed by the Christians until several weeks *after Passover*.”

        Whether they were gone or not is entirely irrelvant. “Preaching the resurrection” didn’t end at Jerusalem’s walls, and, outside those walls – after the Passover was long over – there could potentially have been hundreds of thousands of people who were there and would potentially have seen that Jesus’ body had been put in a trench grave, or just left hanging on a cross. And, those people are *in addition* to the residents of Jerusalem, any one of which could at least potentially refute any claim of “tomb burial” (if Jesus was left on the cross or put in a trench grave).

        My point is simple: Out of a crowd of 80,000 at a football game, *somebody’s* potentially going to notice if that the stoopid “bird mascot” on the sidelines flew off after the game, or, if he just walked off the field like everybody else. So, it’s pretty vain to try to start a story that the “bird mascot” *flew* off. There could potentially be 80,000 other people that would say otherwise. And, really, this shouldn’t be hard to figure out.

        I could make a few more comments, but, I’m gonna leave this “as is”…

        BTW – I signed up… 🙂

        • Celsus says:

          Thanks for signing up. I suppose we are quibbling a bit over the word “central.” Do you have the page numbers for those quotes from Ehrman’s book?

          It’s strange, because I’m pretty sure that Ehrman does not think that Paul had preached an empty tomb. Instead, this detail would have first appears in Mark. If that is the case, the proclamation of the resurrection would have commenced for a few decades, without the story of the empty tomb.

          What Ehrman may describing in those quotes is not the historical necessity of needing an empty tomb, to get the resurrection belief off the ground, but rather the reasoning behind Mark’s motive to invent the empty tomb narrative. The author of Mark deemed it necessary to have an empty tomb, in order to preach a physical resurrection, and thus invented the story of Joseph of Arimathea and the women, to make the whole thing more believable. As such, Ehrman may just be describing Mark’s thinking there. I’ll have to check the book, but that may be what the quote is saying in context.

          In either event, I know that Ehrman does not think that Christianity historically began with an empty tomb event. He thinks that it began with the disciples fleeing to Galilee, and then one or more of them having a visionary experience of Jesus at some point not long after his death. On pg. 175 he writes:

          “If it is true that the disciples fled from Jerusalem to Galilee when Jesus was arrested, and that it was there that some of them ‘saw’ him, they could not have seen him the Sunday morning after his death. If they fled on Friday, they would not have been able to travel on Saturday, the Sabbath; and since it was about 120 miles from Jerusalem to Capernaum, their former home base, it would have taken a week at least for them to get there on foot. Maybe some of them, or one of them, had a vision of Jesus in Galilee soon after he was crucified — possibly the following week? The week after that? The next month? We simply don’t have sources of information available that make this kind of judgement possible.”

          Regarding your question:

          “I know that certain *mourning* practices were not allowed for criminals, but a procession is not a part of mourning. It is a part of the burial process itself. Perhaps you could provide references?”

          I have a book at home that discusses this, but I’m currently staying with relatives. I’ll look into this when I return next week, and get back to you.

          As a heads up though, your comment did catch me at a bad time. I’m currently sick and preparing for a medical leave of absence from my university. I wanted to answer your comments, to address your concerns about this blog essay, but truth is that I don’t really want to engage in debate right now. I will do it, since that’s part of what I do on this blog. But it was an additional stressor to see your comments yesterday.

          I do appreciate that you limited the volume in this last comment.

        • Celsus says:

          I’ll also get back to your other points in this comment, when I find the time, but I’m backlogged on grading right now, and due to being sick, I have to make up a lot of work in order to prepare for teaching next week.

          • ftbond says:

            Hope you start feeling better…

            Honestly, I like to keep posts short myself. Really, I just wanted to clarify that post of mine (which mr heathcliff quoted), to say I wasn’t *translating* xenios as “Gentile”, but rather, saying it was *referring* to Gentiles (foreigners), and that there was ample precedent for my reasoning.

            The rest of the stuff? Well, I had a back-and-forth with Ehrman about the fact that there could be as many as a half-million people camped outside the city walls – any one of whom could well have *seen* Jesus left hanging on the cross, or thrown into a ditch, or buried in a trench grave or put in a tomb. So, it would make it difficult to spread a story about a “tomb”, knowing full well that any given person you were telling the story to could say “hey, I was there, and I saw the whole thing, and they left Jesus up there on the cross for the entire week of Passover”. His response? It was literally “Well, I have a hunch nobody noticed”.

            So, now we do “history by hunches”, I guess. But, I have a hunch a LOT of people saw what happened, because as Ehrman points out in his book, Roman executions were done in the most visible place possible.

            But, I’m rambling. No need to debate what Ehrman says, though.

            Get well….

          • Celsus says:

            Thanks for your understanding tone and keeping a a moderate pace in the discussion. I’ll get back to you when I return home. As noted, this upcoming week is going to be pretty stressful, since I have to catch up on the teaching work that I missed last week. So I may not get back right away. But I have this discussion in mind, and will return to it when I get the chance.

    • Celsus says:

      As a note, while I have not announced it yet, I am introducing a new Comment Policy, in which you need to be a supporter of my blog on Patreon in order to post comments.

      The main reason why is because, with my graduate schedule, I don’t really have time to answer comments like this, unless it’s supporting my academic work financially. You can contribute as little as $1 a month to have commenting privileges. Here is my profile, where you can register as a patron, if you are interested:

      If you choose to become a patron, you can post further comments, if you so desire.

  15. ftbond says:

    mr heatcliff is using a post which I wrote a while back on Ehrmans blog, in a discussion about “thapto”.

    In that post, I said I believed that the use of the word “xenois” (foreigner, alien) indicated Gentiles, not Jews from some area outside of (in this case) Jerusalem… I did not indicate that I believe the *translation* of “xenois” is “Gentile”.

    In Ruth 2:10, we find Ruth saying “…“Why have I found favor in your sight that you should take notice of me, since I am a foreigner (xenois)?”

    Ruth was, of course, a Moabitess.

    In 2 Samuel 15:18, we read “Then the king said to Ittai the Gittite, “Why will you also go with us? Return and remain with the king, for you are a foreigner (xenois) and also an exile; return to your own place.”

    Obviously, this is a another reference to one who is clearly not a Hebrew.

    Eccl 6:2 says “…yet God has not empowered him to eat from them, for a foreigner (xenois) enjoys them.”

    Is this a reference to someone who simply wasn’t from the local area? I doubt it.

    Isaiah 18:2 says “He sends messengers by the sea, and paper letters on the water: for swift messengers shall go to a lofty nation, and to a strange and harsh people.”, and here again we find xenois being used in reference to those of a *foreign nation*.

    Lamentations 5:2 “Our inheritance has been turned over to strangers, Our houses to aliens.” And again, this is in reference to Israel having been lost to a foreign power.

    So, there is precedent for believing that the “foreigners” of Matt 27:7 could indeed be someone other than just non-resident Jews.

    • Celsus says:

      Hi ftbond,

      I will get back to your other comment when I get the chance, but for right now:

      So, there is precedent for believing that the “foreigners” of Matt 27:7 could indeed be someone other than just non-resident Jews.

      I have no problem with the idea that the Sanhedrin took care of burying more than just non-resident Jews in trench graves. Presumably they would have also buried Gentiles in them, as well. As is proposed in Feasting on the Gospels–Matthew (pg. 324):

      “[T]heir purchase of the potter’s field with the blood money paid to Judas will attend to the needs of ‘foreigners,’ a term likely including Gentiles.”

      So scholars are factoring Jews and Gentiles together in these ground burials. Magness appears to do the same, when she translates xenois as “strangers,” which is a more encompassing term than “foreigners.”

      Presumably Gentiles and Jews would have been buried in separate sections, but I think the Sanhedrin would have certainly taken care of ground burials for both. So I didn’t mean to imply that Gentiles were excluded from their burial provisions, if that’s how you took my blog post or comments (maybe I accidentally said something that could be confused as such above).

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